Recent Camelot interview with George Kavassilas

George has a great take of Christianity and also talks about how it is now time to take back our personal sovereignty. He will be touring the US soon - Here's his tour website:

Recent Camelot interview:

Noa's picture

Too bad George isn't mic-ed as well as Kerry (she sure likes hearing herself yack!).  I want to believe that George's stories are genuine, but I've listened to half a dozen of his talks on his website and I dunno.  Something feels a little "off" to me. 

ChrisBowers's picture

I still really appreciate George's insights.

When he spoke of the difference between being liberated in Universal Lore and being stuck in "Law" it really had the sound and feeling of authenticity...

his story is so out there that if we do not have a common point of reference somewhere we will tend to dismiss the testimony, the typical human reaction to the seemingly bizarre and high strangeness...

And I really appreciate how George ties the masculine and feminine to a better understanding of what Jesus' sacrifice on the cross really was, brilliant, and again, a strong sense of authenticity and simple honesty, clarity if you will....

This interview made me think of how there are Clif High interviews that are a bit better than other Clif High interviews, in that they cover more ground.  This one is like that....

His way of talking about light and shadow, timelines, the way he unabashedly rails against Jehovah for claiming to be THE God, strangely and beautifully enlightening (for a former churchgoer)...

And then their discussion about the deception going on in 4D in the new age movement, and George's simple answer about how to tell the difference, simply brilliant!!!!

What they are discussing in the latter part of the interview about dark and light gives a very enlightening glimpse of the complexity of what James from Wingmakers called the human mind system (HMS).  All of this duality and complexity of polarization going on in 3&4D, and then the integration of all that dark/light duality that is 5D.  Sacred Geometry knows this as the Vesica Piscis, the overlapping of the two circles (in the flower of life) that creates the gateway that instantly transcends the polarized duality of the 3&4D cosmos....  brilliant, brilliant, brilliant...

‪Sacred Geometry 101B: The Vesica Piscis‬‏ - YouTube

that is not the all seeing eye on the dollar bill at the top of the pyramid - it is the vesica piscis, the birthplace of creation, the gateway to infinity toward the macro and micro scale of all manifestion...

Thank you Kerry and George for an excellent interview...

p.s. listen to what George says about his visit to the moon at about 2:20, the dark draconian entity he was confronted by, and how that went, and then what George says that is so key to understanding our own individual sovereign paths we are on,

"we contracted them to serve us on this level - the darkness serves us"

this reminded me of Hidden Hand's testimony posted here some time back, how the 6th density social memory complex (like Ra) Lucifer was contracted to serve in this capacity to create the dark/light duality polarized dynamic we experience on a daily basis.  if one continues to think that there is evil that must be destroyed, they are really missing the point of the catalyst transformative dynamic that does not trap us - we trap ourselves via bogus determinations that will ultimately be gladly surrendered....

we remain free, Sovereign and Divine, regardless of the nonsense we adopt for a "spell"...

Thank you Chris.  This is my favorite Sacred Geometrist:  Charles GilChrist.  The Flower of Life, and the study of in Nature, has been my greatest teacher of how to enter a portal into the 4-5thD.  It is through this EYE of HORUS or Viscus Pisces that all creation is created.  This is not the same as the eye on the pyramid, as Chris previously stated.  This eye on the pyramid is the 3rd Eye and depicts the misuse of the Law of One for personal gain.

Truth is found in the most unlikely of places from the most unlikely of sources-- and as with all things the truth will resonate with the HEART and one simply will know it is truth.

I bless all with Love.



ChrisBowers's picture

I have listened to that same one from time to time and it is always as if it were the very first refreshing time.  It is like a timeless Beatles song....

Couldn't agree more dear sister...

as for the eye on the dollar bill, I stick to what I said and believe that the one's who place symbols like that always have a dual meaning in mind to mess with the heads of the sheep, so to speak...

it is their very consistent MO - it is both


I have watched George K.  Transform over the past 5 years... almost exponentially.  He is really integrating the Divine Feminine within his Beingness.  This is where the "I dunno" came from me previously as well.   He is definately in the process of figuring some universal truths out.  He is also morphing into a Luminous Being.  I see the light in his eyes that was not there 5 years ago, what he speaks of about the EARTH-GAIA-SOPHIA is truth.  The Fairy Realm Emissaries have taught me similar things and with my interactions with the Earth-GAIA-Great Goddess (Sophia) she has communicated a very similar message. 


"All our minds are plugged into the mind internet."  George K.  says this. 

Baghavan of the Oneness University teaches:  "Your Mind is not your mind.  It is the Mind.  It is not who you are.  You actually truly create from the HEART and you Soul.  Your mind is not your mind.  It is the mind.  You are not your mind."


Wendy's picture

Holy Cow Chris-

George's accent is so heavy I thought he was saying LRRE, not LORE and went looking on google, trying to figure out what he was talking about. Thanks for the tip!

I also liked the idea that Jehovah is not God. It always bothered me that Jehovah says in the Bible that he is a jealous God - immediately admitting that he isn't the only God with that statement and at the same time not acting at all like the true Creator of the Universe would act. Certainly the One cannot be jealous of his/her own creation.

Doesn't George say something about staying engaged with the world, in spite of knowing that evil is actually contracted by us and in service to us? I still hang on to the idea of carrying and wielding the sword against evil. Not in the spirit of fighting, but using it to break free of all bonds (lies and control mechanisms) that get in the way of personal sovereignty. I remain engaged in the game, even while knowing it is just a game. Perhaps I lack faith that all will come out ok in the end or perhaps I just love a good game.

Speaking of games, please think good thoughts for me guys. I'm going through a major family change these days. We just had a 25 year old and 5 year old (friends of ours) move in with us. It's a blessing to have a young one in the house again but I also know there's a lot of work and adjustments to be made. Hopefully it will be a fun challenge for all involved.

ChrisBowers's picture

Good luck with the new house guests!!!

Could easily be a growing trend as time goes on, especially if George is correct about the 3 months from December 2012 to March 2013, LOL....

The only reason I understood "Lore" was because he spelled it out both times he said "Universal Lore vs. Universal Law".  I just love what he was saying about that, rang big chimes in me at core level, and really relates well to spiritual/religious passages like "judge not lest ye be judged"....  and when George speaks of the Earth shedding her crust and becoming a body of light, that reminded me of the end of Revelation when it says there shall be a new heaven and new earth and the earth will no longer need the light of the sun, but will create its own light...  religious books, in spite of themselves, have been known to have embedded truths in them from time to time (even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes) LOL

more here for your listening & viewing pleasure

‪George Kavassilas and Henrik Sandberg - To Be Love [HD]‬‏ - YouTube

‪George Kavassilas - Truth Frequency Radio - July 16, 2011‬‏ - YouTube

and the fascinating Human Mind System interview with James from WingMakers is posted here

Slavery and the 8 Veils | Gathering Spot

Noa's picture

That's one of the sticking points for me about George's messages.  Does it make any sense for Gaia to endure such longterm ravaging and pillaging by people - a sacrifice she's made to ensure that life continues here -  only for her to become a light body in the end, thus killing all life on the planet?


Noa, those who are ready will go with the Earth.  Those who are ready for 3-4 D will return to a planet that supports that.  Will it happen as George K says it will?  Who knows!   What we do know is this--- The Earth is transitioning to 5D  sometime during the next 1000  years.  Our Sun is a variable star--- meaning, he has his moments when he reaches out with his star arms and kisses the Earth.  This of course is too passionate for all that is upon the surface and she loses her crust or Ego which we live upon.  This has happened many times throughout the history of our Planet, Earth. 

George K is quite correct that the Core or Soul of the Earth is just fine!  Just as our souls at the core of our Beingness are just fine!   It is the outer, body and the personality, and the ego and the spirit of Earth that is in pain.  This pain she is enduring so that those of us who are ready (and the hope is over 33% will be) to move along the spiral of life to the 5D with Earth-Gaia-Great Goddess when she is kissed again by the Sun leading to the birth of her new garment--- as a star.  At this time, it is said by some lesser known solar communicators that Jupiter will join her in this as previously Venus had been kissed by the sun and is now really a fixed star and a 5D planet.  So you could say that this corner of the Galaxy is a to be a positive pole 5 D site. 

I have always interpreted that Ascension meant transition to a new form.  The difference, and this is why Earth is so interesting is this:  Humankind has decided to try to bring the body (although lighter in substance) with them to 5D when they transition along with all the Flora and Fauna of the Earth that wish to go with the Earth to 5D Positive.  This in part is alluded to with the phrase of " And the Lion shall lay down with the Lamb." 

When I asked the Earth-Gaia to assist me in understanding what is about to occur, she said this:

The action of birth requires no conscious intervention on the part of the mother.  The body and soul simply knows what to do with little or no intervention from outside forces.  The time of the birth is in perfect relationship with the timing and soul path of the baby.  When, the birth occurs, the moment of exit from the birth canal depends upon the timing of the baby.  A baby comes in its own time.  The Birth of mySelf will come in its own time with the kisses of the Sun and his transformation.  It is the path of all to return to be with the stars--Earth-Gaia 

This is congruent with what is being said by the Maya, I paraphrase:  "We do not know when this will occur. The exact date has been lost to us.."  And "After a period of 3 days and nights of darkness, we will emerge again.  We do not know if where we emerge will be with the current sun or a new sun.  The darkness is from being within the sun."   And best of all every Elder and Wise Person is saying "do not panic all is perfect."

 I bless you with Love.  -- Fairy

Wendy's picture

Hi Noa-

I see it as a reflection of the fractal universe concept - that the macrocosm reflects the microcosm. So it may not make logical sense for a fat and happy caterpillar to bind itself up in a cocoon and then have to do tons of work to break itself free again as a completely new being, but this seems to be how life progresses. In humans, we seem to need death - it seems like such a waste but it allows for completely new life to be born - and as women we know how painful that process is. So I see us now in the painful cocoon stage, working at freeing ourselves. I'm hoping that this stage will soon end and something much better will emerge.

I agree that caution is always necessary - George's stories are so off the wall they are both hard to believe and also believable at the same time because they are so off the wall. I think he's a valuable source to listen to, perhaps because of his confidence but like I said, I also like that he is promoting personal sovereignty now.


Knightspirit's picture

I love George and his message. It just resonates with me and what I have already been exposed to via MV and Bashar. Interestingly - he will be in Trout Lake WA this month (I just discovered this on the web site!) so I am definitely going to his workshop! I'll post a report when I get back. Can't wait!

Noa's picture

Thanks, Elizabeth and Wendy.  Your words have put my confusion into a context I can understand better.  Gaia is such a beautiful, special planet with such rich, diverse life forms.  Seems a shame she should turn into just another star, but I guess my vote doesn't count. 

I've heard many accounts of the moon being an artificial satellite -- a concept that I find very plausible, but again, I'm rather attached to this beautiful, celestial body.  As a Cancerian, the moon is the governing body of my sun sign.  It's a bit unnerving to think that I've got some manmade fabrication assigned to me astrologically.  It's sort of like living in the aftermath of Yugoslavia's dissolution when its countrymen are in your bloodline or having your tribe annihilated.  I feel a subtle void, but alas, my life's lessons seem to be about detaching myself from people, places, and things.

And so, I'll continue listening to George with an open mind.




ChrisBowers's picture

Just had to post this for this 30 minute segment, from 1:55 to 2:25, George again covers authenticity and personal sovereignty so so well.  So many are so tempted constantly to believe this or join that group, or follow some group calling themselves the galactive federation of light, or similar familiar names we've come to hear of during this constantly developing blossoming journey, every one utterly unique...

take a listen and enjoy the natural innate sense of liberation that comes from sharing such perfectly grounded simplicity of sovereign personal knowing-ness (truthiness is it's artificial counterpart, LOL)...

‪George Kavassilas 3 Hour Live Conversation (USA Tour)‬‏ - YouTube

and then a few minutes after that segment George gets a question about his experiences with the moon and what he believes may happen to this artificial celestial body...  have heard it in other interviews, but this asked in the context of what might happen to the moon makes it even more interesting to ponder.

A star is full of life in a different form that is percieved as a dead gaseous giant by 3D... but how does the Star percieve itself?

This was given to me by the Fairy Realm.



Wendy's picture

Hi Jeff-

We can compare notes- I'm going to see him in Boston.


Knightspirit's picture

Hey Wendy - that's great! I am really looking forward to it. Here in WA he is going to be at a big 20-30 acre ranch called ECETI (Enlightened Contact with Extraterrestrial Intelligence) and it looks to be a really cool venue. They have skywatching events and a bunch of other stuff. Interestingly - I never even knew about them - and they aren't that far from me, so I will be interested to check them out as well. I'll be camping on the ranch - so should be some great star gazing!

ChrisBowers's picture

Another great short little (15 min) to the point(s) comprehensive interview with GK

Global Transformer interview with George Kavassilas 5 june 2011 pt 1 - YouTube

Noa's picture

Wow, thanks for sharing that video, Chris.  I've been wondering when GK was going to share more practical information to prepare people for the Shift.  Most of his other talks are so "out there" that I'm left feeling, "Okay, what do I do with this?  If I accept his notion that the earth is turning into a star, what the heck do I do now?"  This clip answers many of my questions.

ChrisBowers's picture

What blows me away is he sounds like he has read the law of one sessions, but i am pretty sure he has not since he has admitted on several occasions that he has read very few books in his life and that he gets his info from his own personal inward intuitive heart-centered searching.

LightCommodore's picture

George seems like a wonderful guy who has a deep connection to spirituality, but he's also very...imaginative. His perspective on Christianity seems distorted, and I would like to offer an alternative view from the inside.

To those of us on the inside whose spiritual practice includes Christ Consciousness or unity consciousness, the Catholic/Christian Church is the mystical body that connects those in the ancient past who believed blood sacrifice was necessary to those in the Christian era who replaced those sacrifices with bread and wine as a new kind of unbloody physical and spiritual communion with Christ/God to those in the present and future who understand communion with Jesus/God as entirely spiritual.

The Church mystically gathers all those together with the rest of the universe in One mystical Body that transcends time and space. The force that binds it all together in the One Mind of God is Love. The Bible says God IS Love, and that love permeates all things and holds the separate parts together in One. Far from being the antichrist, the Church is the mechanism God uses to bring all of humanity and all of Creation from the primitive understanding in the days of blood sacrifices to the present and future understanding of Unity Consciouseness in which the Holy Spirit makes all into One Body. Those who understand the Church from within, from the deepest perspective understand this. The Bible says the whole of Creation "groaned" as in birth pains for the coming of Jesus, a cosmic birth event in which all of Creation participated, and Jesus when He was physically manifested said "You are in Me, and I am in the Father." All One, do you see?

Jesus's sacrifice on the cross brilliantly subsumes all those views at once. For those who believed in blood sacrifice, it was a blood sacrifice. For those who believe in a physical/spiritual communion, His Body and Blood are present in the communion service He instituted. For those who believe in the pure spiritual communion of Christ Consciousness, his sacrifice was the ultimate surrender to Love, the force that binds the universe together, and the perfect example of how to relinquish the ego no matter what the physical circumstances to trust and immerse oneself fully into the Love that is God. Can you see how this sacrifice encompasses all spiritual views and transcends time and space?

Finally, the Divine Feminine is contained in Jesus's mother, Mary, His first and best disciple, who also surrendered herself to that same Love by consenting to bear Him in her body and give him birth. She was the closest participant in the birth, nurturing, physical and spiritual growth, and death of Jesus. Together, Jesus and Mary surrendered to the Love of God that is All and in All. These are the true divine masculine and feminine, having engaged for our benefit in a beautiful passion play that teaches us to surrender body, ego, and spirit to the Greater Spirit of Oneness and Love in God.

My hope and prayer is that George's deep spiritual perception will bring him to this understanding of the Cosmic significance of Christ, Mary, and the Church, all of whom participate as a single mystical Body in an ongoing drama across all of creation, time, and space whose purpose is to demonstrate for us how to surrender to and immerse ourselves into the Love that is God.


ChrisBowers's picture

inside of what Chuck?  just a rhetorical question for levity's sake.  I went to church for many years and defended it for many years.  now, I not only find George's personal take on the matter refreshing, I favor it.  having had a chance to distance myself from the convention of Christianity I can see more clearly, much more clearly that all religions on this planet have been tampered with.

it is almost as if it is a test.  the test seems to be the temptation to cling to some book like the bible or the koran, cling to all that it says without question, or to go away from all religious convention to find the truth that already resides within one's authentic sovereign Divine Self.

This is why I so appreciate GK's talks, because he is not telling anyone ever to follow anything or anyone other than their own personal inner journey.  a personal inner authentic journey unhindered by any and all religious convention.  But he would also tell anyone who is very adamant about the religion they are clinging to to follow their Soul's journey right there if it is something they care very deeply about.

what we have to realize is that there is no good reason to tell anyone that this is "the way" and you are lost if you are not clinging to Jesus Christ, or the virgin Mary, or any of the religious icons of our day.  that story is not the first virgin birth story in human history either.

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for me, I am finally completely liberated from the notion of having to cling to Christianity (or suffer the consequences of going to the lake of fire).  what nonsense to be filling unassuming soul's heads and hearts with just to keep the masses under control.

Not even Jesus of Nazareth would hold anyone to such manipulative and insincere convention.  he was and is a wayshower, not someone who's blood and body must be drunk and eaten.  and he did not even write one word that is in the bible.  all those words are from others who said this is what he said.  and so many books were left out of the bible that belong in there if we were to have the whole story.

the saviorship model is fading because it is humanity's time to wake up and grow up...  what an amazing time to be here now...  we are the ones we have been waiting for...

and the divine feminine is not contained in Jesus' mother.  it is contained, as GK says, in Mother Gaia, this planet that nurtures all on her (including the woman who gave birth to Jesus), regardless of what they are doing.  these are antiquated 4D fairytales that must and will be transcended.  they are contained within the 4th Density experience and can be surrendered at will, without fear of retribution...

George gives a perfect introduction from minute 15 to minute 27 in this interview

George Kavassilas - Truth Frequency Radio - July 16, 2011 - YouTube

LightCommodore's picture

Hi Chris, et al:

By inside, I just meant to contrast my experience inside of Christ Consciousness from George who seems to put himself outside of the Church and Christ and describes Christ Consciousness as though Jesus Christ and the Church he created isn't in it. In my experience, Christ Consciousness includes the Church (whom Jesus called his bride) and Jesus Christ, who is One with the Creator and the very essence of Love that holds all things together. Mary, the mother of Jesus, participates in the Love also and is the emblem of the divine feminine, and the Earth and physical universe could be said to embody that spirit as well, just as you say. That's why I pointed out that all Creation groaned in longing for the coming of Christ, of Divine Love as a physical manifestation on earth and in the physical dimension. One could say God is the earth's and physical creation's lover; it is his beloved creation, just as we are (the bride of Christ), and all of it contained in the One Mind of God. 

BTW, I make no excuses for the physical church and its many abuses over the past 2000 years. It's a human organization and subject to all the mistakes human beings can make. My take on George's perspective is intended to go beyond the physical church and describe the spiritual Church, as I see it based on my own meditations from a Christian perspective. In the One Mind of God, all things are perfect and achieve their intended purpose, including the Church (again, as a spiritual entity which teaches spiritual reality, not as a physical group of flawed human beings).

This is spiritual and mystical reality from my own direct personal experience and revelation. George's reality is different, and I don't intend him or those who appreciate him any disrespect. To the extent we all participate in the One Love, we are all One. We just see things a bit differently, and I wanted to share how that difference looks from my angle of the reality prism. :-)


ChrisBowers's picture

I am very familiar with all the Christian terminology having spent so many years stuck in a belief paradigm exactly like the one you describe for yourself, but to place yourself on the "inside" because of what you believe while presuming George K. to be on the outside due to what he says presumed to be on the "outside" of conventional Christianity, can you see how that looks?

You are, as you are instructed in Christianity, presuming Jesus Christ to be the Way, Truth and Life, and the only way to the Father.  I understand very well this very firm and widely cherished religious assumption.  This is why I brought up the point about "the inside".  None are on the outside, for All is One, regardless of paradigms of religious beliefs and personal cherished well-seated determinations.

I promise you this from personal experience.  You will, as will all entities clinging to any form of religious paradigm belief structure, ultimately surrender all religious notions.  we are complete already, prior to coming to this 3D experience.  we did not come to become saved or complete - we were never not.  we came for the experience, for the sake of the One that garners all experiences.

From my perspective George has seen more, remembered more of the "inside" than any churchgoing person I have ever known.  he is an excellent wayshower for this time and place, one that prompts people to seek toward the within instead of seeking some externalized form to cling to.  all of the religious forms we cling to are forms of idolatry that keep us distracted from where we are ultimately headed, back toward our own sovereign Divinity that has never diminished, regardless of the very powerful sense of powerlessness and separation that we can and do experience in this 3D experience.

you are a smart man and must at some point realize that when you speak of you being connected to something on the inside while deciding (as per their personal testimony) that someone is putting themselves on the outside, well you know what I am getting at don't you Chuck?

it is the same stuff that happens with different churches "inside" the same Christian religion, not to mention the wars that have been fought between peoples of different religions.  the behavior in religions speaks for itself.  the saviorship model is a very old and tired kindergarten teacher that retired long ago.  it is time for us to move on and remember who, what and where we actually are...

to put it bluntly, Jehovah/Yahweh is a 4D entity and the Cosmos, all of Creation is not bound to the dictates of the Christian story based in 4th density, not to mention that the Christian story itself has been tampered with and left somewhat undone as per the wishes of those using it to empower themselves.

If we had the whole story there would be a somewhat different understanding concerning Jesus of Nazareth and his beloved and dearly cherished Mary Magdalene and all the great work she did. I hope some day, for the sake of transparency, that we get the whole story, but in the end it is not required...

but it would be nice...

LightCommodore's picture

Chris, I suspect you're speaking from a conditioned reaction rather than hearing what I am saying. I am one of the very few Christians you will ever meet who recognizes Jesus as a way and a Being who is One with God but does NOT think Jesus is the ONLY way to God. You are making too much of my use of the term "inside." By that, I just meant that George seems to put himself outside and makes the Church an enemy. I am a member of the Church physically and spiritually, and so I see it from the different perspective of being inside, but I don't mean that in the sense of excluding anyone.

Since we are all One in God, and I know that we are from experience, being either inside or outside is actually an impossible place. The Church, like every other aspect of reality, is training us to know God, to be at One with that perfect Love. The Church has had a valuable role to play in advancing spiritual knowledge through the centuries. That is why I don't accept the Church as an enemy and an antichrist as George teaches. I see how the Church fits in the perfection of the spiritual cosmos, all perfect, all working toward that knowledge of Oneness in Love. If anything, I am suggesting George sets up a duality, and I don't see it that way.

Hope that makes clear that I am not coming from the usual Christian viewpoint, even though I do see some meaning and value in that viewpoint, both historical and ongoing, as a pointer to Oneness in God. It is an imperfect pointer in that it does not offer an exactly accurate description of God (nothing does), but it is perfect in the sense that it works harmoniously with the whole to get us back to knowing who we are in God.


ChrisBowers's picture

but you go on to make my point again by assuming that GK "makes the church an enemy".  it is not his style.  he does not go there - he comes from a Christian backround and claims to have communicated with Archangel Michael, the real one, not one of the imposters.  from what he has said about that and other paradigms we can become attracted to and somewhat stuck in he makes it very clear that you don't have to be bound to such paradigms that encourage separation and polarization.  then he goes on to say that if it be your soul's journey to inhabit a religious paradigm or the whole 4D paradigm which is more vast than we can currently imagine, than by all means continue on, for this is your path.

you have to understand how presumptuous it sounds to use the word "inside" in favor of your own religious position on the matter.  my conditioning has nothing to do with it other than remembering when I was doing the same thing without realizing it and offending others in the process.  there is not much to misunderstand in your initial post.  you placed yourself on the inside in accord with what you believe and presumed GK to be on the outside as per his testimony, a self described enemy of the church.  your reasoning was based upon religious dogma and indoctrination.  look at it this way - you would have never said such things as "inside" and "outside" and "makes the church an enemy" if you had not been party to the religious beliefs you came to adore after being exposed to them.

my conditioning does not cause me to not understand.  it actually helps me to understand better because of my past experience with Christianity and those who adamantly express such certitude, believing without a doubt they are on the "winning side" while others are not and are headed for hell.  I know you do not believe that way entirely, but use of certain trigger words can easily make you sound like them...

I understand you are kind of falling somewhere in between, but you can't be a little bit pregnant.  your use of the words inside and outside reveal that, that's all I'm saying.  And please don't feel offended.  It is not you who are wrong - it is the audacity of religion that is wrong...

there is something so much bigger going on that religions miserably fail to address or include.  jeez, some actually believe that the earth was created 6000 years ago!  what a mentally and spiritually incapacitating paradigm...

there is no book that is required reading for getting to where we are going...

Hi guys,

Personally, I cannot go with religion or "christ" at all....I think Christ is a fictional character that was created to blind the masses....which "he" does very well....I think the whole thing was put together by the romans to control people...which it does....

I will not worship a "man" or place any confidence in the whole saviour mentality thing......I don't really like the 2nd and 3rd Matrix movies because they just became another version of this whole Christ will save us all...such a copout and disappointment after the first movie....

I think it was a zeitgeist thing I saw once where they pointed out that people went from worshipping the Sun god to the new improved...son of god...and they also told a nice tale linking the virgin birth, death and resurection all as an astrological thing which made a lot of sense to me.......




LightCommodore's picture


You are still projecting your frustrations with Christianity onto me and assuming I believe those things you're frustrated about. I don't think there is anything I can say that you will hear because you are not seeing past your projections, but I will try once more.

What would you say it means when George says the Church is an "antichrist"? I would say he's setting up a dualistic opposition between himself and the Church or at least between the Church and what he sees as the "true" spiritual path.

I disagree and think that the Church, which has a very strong mystical tradition, and other mystical traditions, such as Hinduism and Buddhism, played vital, foundational roles in the evolution of human spirituality. Because of these faiths, we are where we are now, and I believe that these traditions are still evolving and taking us where we need to go in the future if we really understand the Oneness in Love that is at the heart of all three traditions. 

I don't know what prompted George to see the Church as an antichrist, but first I believe the duality of that position is mistaken, and secondly, I believe he is not seeing the whole picture of the Church, or he couldn't say such a thing. I can tell you that my own spiritual experiences of Oneness and connection with God sprang from the mystical teachings of the saints of the Church, as well as some involvement in Hinduism and Buddhism.

It does not bother me if some people don't relate to Christianity as a path. They may find their way via another tradition or on their own without a tradition, but I do believe it is a grave mistake to cast Christianity aside as an "antichrist" when it has played an important role in the evolution of spirituality, as I outlined in my first post.


ChrisBowers's picture

Nothin' like a good drive home while stoned to get ya to the core thing I was trying to get to.  Sorry that it took that long and all that sparring Chuck, forgive me & thank you.  I actually love these coyote den moments that can be such good catalyst.

what I got to on the way home, what I got from GK so purely and simply, let whatever you think you believe in be authentically my own.  I borrowed Christianity and it got me started so I can't complain.  again, thank you Chuck for being a wonderful sparring partner, I really do love these Coyote moments...

Namaste Dear Brother, Namaste

p.s. as far as the antichrist thing, I do trust he has much of this right and you have to remember that that's okay if he does and its okay if he doesn't, but I think he is referring to the Catholic machine, the Vatican...  someone correct me if that's wrong...

and the other thing that always made me go hmmm (and I mean this in all sincerity Chuck and love you as a brother), why do practicing Christians believe that Christianity needs to be defended?  When I was a practicing Christian I thought that - I was asking myself that question.  That is where ACIM really took me to the next level (for me), what is Real cannot be destroyed, what is unreal does not exist. What a great mind that woman had/has....

LightCommodore's picture

Yes, namaste, dear brother, Chris. Your post made me laugh about how being stoned sets a person right with the world. Being an old guy, I don't indulge anymore, but I remember the feeling with joy. Smile You know, when you get older, life gets more settled, but it only takes a comment like yours or a whiff of dope smoke to instantly take you back to when you were 25. Laughing The body gets older but memory never ages.

That is a very valuable point, Chris, that we need to respect our own path as authentic. This life was designed to take us where we need to go, if we learn from the experiences. George's deep spirituality came out of his unique difficult experiences in life, and those experiences, tough as they were, opened countless spiritual doors for him. You have to trust that your path will lead you to Awakening if you consciously and persistently follow it.

I suspect you're right that George is reacting to the Vatican, the machine as you called it. The more I grow spiritually, the less I pay attention to that machine and seek instead the deeper mystical awareness that is also part of the tradition. It's odd that the machine coexists with and even promotes that mystical understanding while also being so unenlightened and sometimes even harmful. I guess it's the paradox of human nature--all of us who are spiritually oriented realize we still have a very unenlightened ego even as we grow in spiritual awareness. The Church is really no different.

Thanks again for a good discussion, Chris. 


P.S: Just saw your question, Chris, about why defend Christianity. Admittedly Christianity is my tradition, so I'm more likely to respond, but I might also have responded if he said Zen was the antichrist. Something good that is maligned and misrepresented should be defended, or at least, another counterbalancing point of view offered so that listeners have another angle on the truth. I don't believe in defensively defending anything and hope I didn't come across that way. Just wanted to share another view from somebody for whom Christianity works.

Bob07's picture

That was a great discussion, Chuck and Chris.  It points up how difficult it is to communicate in words things that words weren't created to express.  Here you both have the same essential understanding but had to struggle to recognize that.

I'd like to add just one thing, that may or may not, well, add something...  It's something that was said in two different ways by two different teachers I had/have, from two very different traditions.  The first formulation was by a leader in the Gurdjieff Work: "The Work is a dream devised to lead us to the edge of dreaming."  And the second was by a Tibetan lama:  "There is only one class of [spiritual] practice not based on human illusion: ati yoga [naked Awareness]." (This lama, by the way, taught and teaches many practices "based on human illusion" because they are effective.  But the core of his teaching is naked Awareness.)

These men were not denigrating spiritual traditions and forms; they were just describing them for what they are: mind-created structures with their supporting stories (based on history or not), rituals, and images, designed to bring us to the point of waking up.  After waking up, the structures and stories can be given up or retained as one wishes. 

Chuck, you point out that the essence of the spiritual/religious traditions that have the potential to wake us up (i.e., experience God [or whatever term is used] directly) are their mystical core traditions (my language).  And that, as I read your comments, constitutes the "inside" you talk about.  Devotional adherents to a religion who don't [yet] have that "mystical experience" are still on the "outside," in a fundamental sense.  But, I'd offer that someone who has woken up in one (or no) tradition would, in an essential sense, be on the "inside" of all traditions with a mystical core.  Would you agree?

ChrisBowers's picture

Why feel the need to defend any of them if one truly believed in the Authenticity of their chosen discipline, whether it be Zen, Christianity or whatever?  The Authenticity of one's own sovereign and very personal experiences, as alleged in GK's case, and you have someone that is never ruffled by any comment because they have absolutely nothing to defend, as George exhibits constantly and consistently.  I have never seen the smile leave his face.

Ohhhh, what a feeling, an authentic and everlasting serenity, a peace with no opposite, nothing to defend.  most definitely an attribute of Authenticity, the result of not borrowing from the store of religious offerings, not looking for a savior, no hideous seed of inception planted in the mind concerning fallen or sinful creature.

These are the wayshowers of humanity, the new breed leading the way out of morass of the saviorship models of old, so be it, amen.  And as far as "getting old" is concerned, all that is in the mind and I am old myself if you are old, LOL, you're only 3 years older, and at this age that might as well be 3 days, LOL...

and Bob, great point about structures designed to wake us up, for that is what Christianity gave to me, and really appreciate your take on all this Jez - always have...  always will...

dog bless us all, each and every one, yo man....

Wendy's picture

Very interesting discussion guys. I'd like to point out that that although it isn't yet formalized, there's nothing to prevent a new GK religion from forming so maybe we shouldn't be speaking of GK as outside a religious tradition. As a student of the history of science and the gradual changing of paradigms and concepts, I don't believe we are seeing anything new here. Wouldn't JC have looked exactly like GK, as he complained to his followers about the Pharasee's?

I think good points were made about how GK speaks with authority (back to the original meaning of the word, to author) and how current religious practice so frequently devolves to idolatry. This entire discussion to me is actually incredibly ironic because I see quite a bit of similarity in JC and GK's messages.

GK describes a similar path - getting to the end of his rope with illness due to torture from non-human entities, not necessarily different from the 20 or 40 (?) days and nights JC spent in the dessert battling with the devil. GK talks about getting away from law, where there is fear that they can take you out and to lore, where that fear no longer exists. Same as JC talking about how one needs to dye in order to live.



Knightspirit's picture

Hi Guys - I JUST got back from Georges event in WA- I will be posting a whole new segment on that shortly - but just wanted to reiterate his posiiton on some of this. He DOES believe Jesus was a real man - and says he was there when Jesus was. What he does NOT believe - is that he was the " son of god." He was the physical incarnation of the SUN - the male energy (earth being the female energy) - and his sacrifice was for the purpose of releasing his "bride"- the Earth - to be raped and pillaged for the benefit of our process. That was the sacrifice. Also - he mentioned that there was no resurrection - Jesus was a light being from the get go and could do all of the things an ascended master can do. He also reincarnated over and over as different beings to be on the earth as the process continued (as Buddha, King Arthur etc etc).

Earth herself is the feminine energy - not Mary - and she has been overlooked as the one who made the ultimate sacrifice for Man.

He had some more to say about the Vatican and some meetings there etc. - check out the whole video when it comes out. Really great stuff! New post pending...


LightCommodore's picture

Bob, yep, you got the whole thing I was trying to express, including what I originally meant by inside and outside. I said in a later message that in the truest sense, when one "realizes," there is no inside or outside. You said it another way by saying that all who realize are inside. 

My personal view is still that George is very, very mistaken in oh so many ways, but I have said what I believe is truth and how it differs from George's truth, so I've had my say. No need to belabor it. I don't want to detract from the peace and joy others are receiving from his teaching. Where I DO see truth in George's teaching is in the aspect Wendy brought up--his description of the spiritual overcoming that occured when he reached the limit of suffering and went beyond it to realization--THAT is sublime and inspiring.

Looking forward to Jeff's next post after seeing George in person.


ChrisBowers's picture

Yes, thank you for the clarification, exactly what GK said in one of his previous 3 hour talks in July.  Only thing you left out was that very interesting symbolism of the cross stabbing the earth, similar to other symbolism like King Arthur's sword.

You must have had a great time in Trout Lake, congrats on being able to get there for the get together.

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